Edsel Records reject Robert Palmer MP3 mastering claims

Fascinating to come across this site. I fully agree with the comparison with theUSA Culture Factory Robert Palmer re-issue sound quality. I did a comparison with Culture’s re-issue of US 60’s band Quicksilver Messenger Service live album from ’68: Happy Trails with two other cd versions, one from US Capitol and other from Repertoire Germany. Culture had absolutely murdered it with high compression, severe limiting and secondary de-noising. Did a scathing review on amazon.uk under review name ”Gerbil”. Their end product was unlistenable and they claimed 96Khz/24 bit audiophile re-mastering. Absolute b*ll*cks.

It’s a small thing but perhaps telling. Edsel can’t be bothered to provide Amazon with track listings or samples for some or all of the Palmer reissues.

Here’s food for thought for those that criticize people who look at audiophiles or complain about the mastering. Back in the early 80’s when CDs were just coming out, many music executives in the US were reluctant to embrace it. Their complaint was that once you bought a CD, you wouldn’t need to buy another one. With an LP you would have to buy one again in time because it would degrade from being played over and over again. They wanted the CD to be like an LP, were people had to buy one again and again in the future. I heard this in the news back in the early 80’s, when CDs where still around $50 to $80.

What a coincidence that CDs started to be mastered so badly that people either didn’t buy them or bought a new release hoping to get a CD that sounded right. Now that the computer age is here and everyone has a one with cheap speakers, they can’t tell that the sound quality is crap. The music industry loves it because they don’t have to give you quality and spend less money mastering it. If people actually bought an affordable sound system, they would be able to tell how horrible the mastering is just by hearing it.

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I’ve tried the CD analysing software Shaun mentioned. It does seem to throw out some false results (although to be fair, they do mention this) but when I trialled something I knew to be sourced from mp3 – something I had converted back myself from 320 Kbps I was quite stunned at the frequency response. It was a mixture of tracks, and all bar two showed a heavy cut off in the 16kHz range which could be seen in the spectrum view, and what looked like a brick wall filter in the frequency graph. I can’t say anything about the Palmer CDs as I don’t have them. They may not be mp3 at all, but it is unusual to have a cut off at that frequency point.

I have these discs – they sound just fine to my ears, and its a pleasure to have the 70s albums available again, some with extra tracks. And yes – I have a true hi-fi system not a ‘stereo’.

I’m hoping that the mixes they got weren’t the infamous “remasters” that Palmer took on himself. If you’ve heard any of them on his compilations released between 1989-2002, I’m sure you know what I’m talking about. They have this crackerbox elimination sound to them where he removed instruments that still have echo in the BG. Give Me An Inch with the flute removed is particularly weird sounding.

I like Robert Palmer. But I didn’t want to buy any of these. Because there aren’t enough bonus 12″ for me. Perhaps only the Pride/Riptide. But now I won’t because of the quality issue.
Ian Hill says (September 16, 2013 at 23:08):
It looks like all 8 discs are sourced from mp3. It would be interesting if you could follow up on this Paul. Another case of music lovers being shafted by the record companies again!?
http://www.superdeluxeedition.com/news/robert-palmer-island-catalogue-no-longer-marooned-thanks-to-edsel/
I was also excited about the Tabu reissues. But in the end I didn’t get any for the same reason.

I like to thank Paul for making his hobby (I guess/assume) on this scale! So we all music lovers can come here, getting the latest news on reissues, info’s we need to know, discussing, changing ideas on the tracklisting, a platform for record companies/labels & fans to communicate!

I believe Paul only provides us a service here. He’s not responsible for anything/anyone (to buy or not to buy). Please respect each other here :) We are old & wise enough to decide whether we will get a reissue or not. You can get all the info’s you want on the internet. I have to work. So I don’t always have the time to check the latest updates on reissues. I come here every now and then to keep myself updated. Sometimes I still order/buy those CD’s although quality issues. Since I like to have “1 bird in the hand than 10 in the air”! If you’re not happy/satisfied with those CD’s. You still can re-sell it on eBay or elsewhere online. But we still help each other by mentioning problems/complaints we have on here. So recordcompanies/labels/artists can take some notes for the future reissues. Thank you for those tech insides. I’m happy someone took the time to explain those to us. :P

First, I don’t consider myself an audio expert. Second, I also thank Paul for bringing this to our attention.

People on the Hoffman Forum claimed to be using a program called TAU Analyzer (PC platform only) to get their results. I downloaded the program and processed the Esdel remaster of Some People Can Do What They Like. The result of MPEG came back for all tracks. THEN I processed my original Island Records CD of the very same title. The result came back as CDDA for all tracks.

So there you go. Unless the TAU Analyzer program is bad, there are the results. An A/B comparison. And anyone is free to try it themselves.

Paul, thank you for bringing this to our attention. Also thank you for getting an official response from Edsel. The third “thank you” goes to your replacement of “refute” by “reject” – all this is actually very much appreciated and you’re one of the good ones!

I’m not an expert, just music lover and I bought them all… I hope that not been cheated.

They haven’t actually -refuted- (use a dictionary) any claims at all.

Aucdtect says that CDs from all 4 sets are from lossy encodes… but the EMI releases from last year are not.

They could have at least acknowledged it and apologized. Trying to discredit the allegation is very disingenious.

This is a very sad state of affairs. The fans deserve better.

And so does the music.

‘CD Mastering – Universal Studios, Belsize Road, Kilburn’
Quite clear on the back cover of the booklet

I said it at the Hoffman forums and I’ll say it here… please don’t take your frustrations out on Paul. He’s doing everyone a service! I appreciate his measured approach. Accusing him of “spreading misinformation” about audiophiles evaluating music based on waveforms–and then engaging in a long and tedious discussion about waveforms and spectrum analysis–is frankly hilarious. People talk about how shocked and surprised they are about the Palmer reissues in one breath and then rattle off a long list of other Edsel reissues with problems in the next. Why are you surprised? Edsel is a budget label that will cut every corner possible in order to put products on the shelves and turn a very small profit. But people somehow expect their releases to get the Abbey Road treatment. No way.

I bought the Secrets/Clues/Maybe It’s Live set and actually have no issue with the sound. This thread has turned into pure speculation and accusations of foul play. Until there is conclusive evidence that corners have been cut then everyone should really be careful what they say. Pointing the finger at people and assuming that there’s some sort of conspiracy theory going on is helping nobody and i’m totally fed up of hearing people whining about big companies ripping us off and not caring. Universal have put out some pretty good stuff over the years and they at least have a catalogue marketing team that puts some effort into exploiting the material they own. Whilst I class sound quality as a high priority with my music I don’t take it to the extent of ‘looking’ at the music. I tend to use my ears to tell me if the sound is acceptable. The original Island issues of the Robert Palmer catalogue are awful (like most original Island CDs) so I’m actually happy with the improvement. And yes I am listening on decent equipment before anyone starts ‘questioning’ my opinion.

Paul, first of all, thank you for bringing this to our attention. Although I love audio enhancement, I don’t frequent the forums for the exact reason you mentioned. As with most things musical, it’s subjective. There’s no way to ‘win’. Does it say ‘remastered’ on the sleeves at all, or give any mastering details? If not, is this just a simple re-release? I see flat transfers, but no evidence of any remastering. Just asking.

I’m disappointed with these Robert Palmer release, simply because I love the ‘Riptide’ album especially and to think that the 2013 version is sonically inferior to my original Island CD pressing is completely unacceptable. When informed here of the re-release, I was excited to get a version of the album that was as good as it could be. Apparently that might not be the case. Surely the people that frequent this website and still actually seek out and buy CD’s do so to avoid the compression and limitaions of lossy formats. If I wanted convenience as a motivating factor, I wouldn’t be here. I appreciate the opinions of those who have done the preliminary investigation, hopefully I will evaluate this and get to make up my own subjective mind as to whether I will shell out my hard-earned on any of these sets. Surely record companies are aware that the consumers like us are the ones they really need to keep happy to stay alive. I say that with tongue lightly in cheek, and hopefully proved right!

If indeed the albums have been sourced to Edsel from mp3-level masters, that is a sad state of affairs….which is the tactic of Island/Universal. They were happy to take the mega-dollars in the 80’s…now, it seems the tapes are being treated with contempt.

I’m appreciative of reissue labels like Edsel/Cherry Red/Music Club etc as they have reissued albums that I either missed first time around or expanded versions of albums that I loved.

I hate it when they don’t do proper research but perhaps it’s due to budget restraints. These CD sets are unbelievably cheap (a 2CD set for £5-£8!! in a lot of cases) in good quality packaging. Perhaps they need to invest more time in sourcing and checking the material, but this would obviously add to the costs which would need to be passed on to us, the buyers. I would be willing to pay a bit more for a better quality CD but would it limit their appeal to other buyers?

The problem is becoming more widespread as it’s affecting full priced albums, not just budget releases. Compilation albums are appearing more regularly which look and sound like itunes playlists burned to disc without any checking of the tracks/sound levels etc. The worst recent example is the new “Now That’s What I Call Disco” 3CD compilation. A poorly researched compilation with varying sound quality, wrong mixes, bad edits and re-records on a brand which used to proudly claim to use the original hits. It’s increasingly worrying that CD releases cannot be relied upon for quality.

I think this is a great blog and I am very grateful to Paul Sinclair for all his fine work, however….can you please change the headline because in no way does Val Jennings ‘refute’ anything.

Refute = Prove (a statement or theory) to be wrong or false; disprove.

So it would be much more accurate to say: “Edsel Records reject Robert Palmer MP3 mastering claims.”

(I can’t blame you because I see ‘refute’ misused everywhere: in newspapers, on TV, radio…even by (oh horror!) the BBC.)

Actually, and on second thoughts, the headline should say: “Edsel Records reject Robert Palmer MP3 mastering claims in an unconvincing and condescending manner.”

Ok. This is it. I just cancel my pre-order Bananarama edsel deluxe editions and cancel my orders for Level 42 & Heaven 17 live box sets. I am also not happy with S.O.S. Band vinyl rips.

Brand new 2013 cd reissues sourced from 128 kbps mp3 files. Superdeluxe NOT.

Not all re-issue companies skimp on quality and show a lack of respect for the music and the listener-Ace,LITA and Tompkins Square put out consistently excellent releases-but of course, they are independent (AFAIK) and run by music lovers.
Pity about Edsel -buyer beware on the imminent Andrew Gold, David Gates and Badfinger releases?

It’s a bit sad to see that this (otherwise excellent) blog is spreading misinformation. For starters, this issue has nothing to do with “looking at waveforms”. Yes, audiophiles do look at waveforms, to see dynamic range and loudness. It can be agreed that those are subjective issues, everyone hears them differently and there can be various opinions, all valid and true. But this is no such issue. A hard frequency cutoff (which, by the way, can not be seen in a waveform, you need to look at the spectrum) is something for which there is NO legitimate reason to appear in an audio recording on a CD. And it CAN be heard quite easily by a lot of people, without even looking at the spectrum. What’s even worse, a 16 kHz cutoff is not just something indicating “mp3”, it’s indicating a “very low quality mp3”. When you look at this table, you can see the frequency boundaries that the LAME MP3 codec uses:

http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=LAME#Technical_information

As can be seen, the V2 and V0 presets (which are the ones most people use) retail information up to 18 kHz or 22 kHz. A 16 kHz cutoff indicates a 128 kbps mp3 source, which is really really bad.

I’m just grateful that this issue has been brought to light. I was poised to buy all 4 of these reissues but won’t bother now.

The music’s not much cop anyway.

Sadly the modern age is littered with people in the music business who have failed to keep up with what their customers want. Time and again they have got it wrong.

It is not 1980 anymore. We’ve got lots of things on which to spend our money, and we’re not simply happy because something exists. That is no longer good enough.

It is not 2000 anymore. We don’t want compressed masters and butchered dynamics. We’re not all “audiophiles”, but we do possess the ability for critical listening. We KNOW we’re being short-changed, and it’s not good enough.

It is not 2010 anymore. It is trivial to check a disc to see, in a stark factual manner, what is being presented. And we have the Internet to disseminate that information globally. We are not tied to country borders and music magazines where companies can employ damage control.

I don’t own any of these discs. I have the only album by Palmer I’ve eber wanted, Riptide, from an CD bought at the time of release 20-odd years ago. But what strikes me here is that this incident should inform those in the music business that consumers aren’t passive animals who eat anything thrown over the fence. We are discerning. While I don’t particularly like Plamer’s catalog, or that of Chic, or Bros. etc – there are people that do, and their passion isn’t a vlind grab at anything andf everything just because it’s there. They want definitive releases – which isn’t solely measured in the number of tracks. This “shovel as much in as you can” approach is way too much Tesco and not enough Curator.

So in short – all people want is for the record companies to give releases as much love as the fans who will be doing the buying. We WANT to buy this stuff, but we’d appreciate a lot more care and attention. You will be rewarded by more sales.

Sorry, but Edsel have NOT refuted the claim. Refute means to prove erroneous. What they claim to have done is reproduced what was given to them, which in this case clearly is NOT a flat master. They do bear responsibility if they did no checks on the quality of what they were given and continue to deny the obvious falsity of the quality claim.

Paul, the 16kHz “shelf” isn’t 100% proof of an MP3 source, as theoretically there’s a chance of a lowpass filter in the chain somewhere, but it’s a very very strong indicator. (It does pretty much guarantee that these were NOT sourced from anything resembling the master tape, though. Even the iTunes AAC version looks better on a spectrogram than these supposed “flat transfers”.)

If there’s frequency-blocking, I’d consider it definitive proof of lossy encoding in the chain. It’d be easily spotted with the linear spectrogram view in Audacity.

I bought a couple of compilations on the Music Club Deluxe label (A best of by The Beat was one of them) and I thought the sound was thin compared to the older CDs that I already had. I traded in the Music Club Deluxe double CD and have avoided the Music Club Deluxe label since. I’m no audiophile, I just thought their remastering didn’t sound up to par. Maybe other releases they have done sound good, I the ones I purchased did not.

Now I’m glad I picked up that used original US CD of Clues the other day.
It sounds better than I expected. It’s a shame that you can’t even find most of these 70’s Robert Palmer titles. Now there are quality issues with two different companies reissuing them.

I’m tiring of this whole “people should just be happy with what we give them” attitude that Val Jennings seems to be furthering.

No audio info above 16 kHz = lossy source, no matter how you cut it. Whether that happened at Universal, or at Edsel, it’s still a fact. An .mp3 converted to a .wav is still going to be lossy. Also a fact.

What disturbs me is that if this wasn’t intentional, no one caught this in the mastering stage. Or cared to.

“The Very Best of Blancmange”, a 2-CD collection released on Music Club Deluxe (a division of Demon Music Group) in 2012, suffered the same fate as these Robert Palmer reissues/”remasters” on Edsel (also, a division of Demon Music Group). In addition to including incorrect mixes/versions, several of the tracks were MP3-sourced. Take a listen to “Waves” on that compilation. It doesn’t get much worse than that.

I wonder if Val has any commentary on not using the 12″ mixes of “I Didn’t Mean To Turn You On”, “You Are In My System”, and “Discipline of Love”, as listed, for the “Pride”/”Riptide” reissue. Sorry, Val, it’s not about trying to invent or find faults. It’s about acknowledging facts! Most people buying these reissues are looking for CD quality sound, not MP3 quality sound, and the correct versions of the songs (as stated on these releases). If people wanted MP3s, then they would download and not buy the physical release!

Val Jennings has already stated, quite categorically in the past, that he is not interested in audio quality, or upholding the sort of standards we had in the early CD era. He belives we should be grateful for what we get. Which is why, I suppose, we have these releases with up to three albums fitted onto 2 discs, showing compressed sound and with incorrectly-labelled mixes.

Nobody cares anymore, nobody has the money or resources to care, because the people who should care are either retired, dead, going deaf, or believe that mp3s are the future for everything and audio fidelity can go to hell.

There are too many mistakes and too many corners being cut now that the industry has abandoned any notion of competence or quality. Glossy sleeves with pretty stickers full of promises (that actually spoil the discs because of glue, doh!) is not the same as proper, quality music on properly mastered and manufactured discs.

“They were done in 2006 for Universal’s very own catalogue team, who were all set to reissue the albums, until the whole project was shelved for reasons no-one involved can remember”

Universal manager: Hey, who ordered these masters?? The tapes we ordered have all the frequencies over 16k cut off!!??
Universal employee: whoops…!
Universal manager: [Sigh] Let’s just shelve it …

What Val really means – “I really don’t know what else to say. We don’t know and we don’t care about the quality of the material that is provided by the labels. It’s shame that people can’t just be glad that someone has reissued the records and simply buy any trash we’re dumping on the market, ignoring even the most obvious faults.”

Mr. Jennings openly admits that he doesn’t have the slightest clue about the history of the material that was provided to Edsel, thus assuming there wasn’t MP3 involved at any stage is 100% pure speculation (and hope). MP3 sourced or not – perhaps we can simply agree on this simple fact: The original releases had information above 16 kHz, while these re-releases do no longer. I don’t think it is completely unreasonable or has anything to do with “nitpicking” or “SLAMMING” when demanding an explanation for this obvious discrepancy …

“There are certainly lots of people who would rather stare at a waveform with their eyes than listen to it with their ears”

Definitely recommended for the forthcoming Bros re-issue :-)

I’ve just listened to the Edsel ‘Sneakin’Sally ‘and ‘Pressure Drop’ and there’s definitely something lacking in the overall sound .Certainly not from the original master tapes for a start.We should not have to be content with the better than nothing approach ( or be grateful for anything should I say ).Just listen to a copy of Addictions Vol.1 or 2 and the quality there shines through.Island should have acknowledged the man with their own individual album reissues from the original tapes with an approved engineer.

I haven’t heard these so I can’t comment but reissue labels do themselves a disservice with sloppy remasterings and cut corners when putting these out on physical media-there were a lot of complaints about some of the sources used on Edsel’s Tabu reissues so I think some people are wary. I’ve also seen a lot of complaining about some Cherry Red stuff. There are certainly lots of people who would rather stare at a waveform with their eyes than listen to it with their ears, but if something sounded dodgy it’s not unreasonable to think someone might want to investigate the sound further…

I’m no audio expert ,but the previous batch of RP reissues sounded fine to me. I have the Don’t Explain/Heavy Nova reissue which was excellent. I’m debating whether to get the Clues/Riptide one or not. I think the fault with those is the bonus track selection . On Riptide the actual 12″ mix of I Didn’t Mean To Turn You On is missing and replaced by the 7″ mix. Also no 7″ mix of Addicted To Love…

Arrogance here …

”I really don’t know what else to say. It’s shame that people can’t just be glad that someone has reissued the records, instead of trying to find or invent faults.”

ignorance there …

” … maybe they need a re-think about what type of music these mysterious people actually enjoy listening too, rather than waste their time studying wave files.”

If you don’t care about the quality of your music, that’s your business, but others do – and there’s absolutely nothing “mysterious” about this. Taking a few minutes of your time and actually looking at some waveforms, you’d see that it’s not like the information above 16 hKz was already missing from the original recording sessions, but it has obviously been simply cut off at some point – which is something you do not only see, but also hear.

This story is hilarious – I know everyone’s gotta have a hobby, but come on! “audiophiles often like to ‘look’ at the sound of tracks via waveforms – it’s a way to check the state of the mastering” – maybe they need a re-think about what type of music these mysterious people actually enjoy listening too, rather than waste their time studying wave files.

Having said that, some of the tracks on the early 12″/80’s series of CD’s had tracks mastered from vinyl, which really did suck :-(

I can’t talk for this situation for Edsel at all, but it is not unknown for data compressed sources to be used. I have an EMI 80s CD set where at least one track has clear audible data compression artifacts.